Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

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Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by verdilak » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:26 pm

For the past few weeks I've noticed something...

Starmage21 wrote:
That said, I dont wanna play Tri-Stat. Savage Worlds I've only had that supers game with you guys with, so I dont really have much opinion on that either in any setting not supers.

Starmage21 wrote:I am absolutely interested in playing games! I play in 3 reliable games a week and I'm always looking for more. The only reason I haven't played any here lately is because you've all been stuck on tristat worse than an apple fanboy. I fucking hate that system! Its like trying to write a story in your own blood (it'll work but it sucks every step of the way).

Starmage21 wrote:
I'm not asking anyone to do anything, just explaining why I havent played many games here in the last 6-8 months or whatever. That reason, to reiterate for you because you seem to have missed it is that "it is not my preference to play tri-stat."

Starmage21 wrote:
Not all of us have gone uber-gay for Tri-Stat :D


... that you dislike Tri-Stat dX as a system lol. I don't remember you ever being part of any of my games where I used Tri-Stat, or any of hippie's where she used Tri-Stat... but I could be wrong. Have you ever played a Tri-Stat game with us?

I guess... I am just confused why you "fucking hate that system" and why you think "its like trying to write a story in your own blood"? It sounds like you've played Tri-Stat before, but it must have crashed and burned pretty badly ("Point to where the gaming system touched you": Seriously, maybe you just need to vent about it... I do it enough with systems I am not fond of to say that it is rather therapeutic). I don't have a lot of love for the system myself, but as Nul said, its smooth enough to be good. But as hippie said, she doesn't have much love for d&d, WW's system, and PB's system... but she still keeps trying them over and over again just in case its the game that sucked balls and not just the system.

I guess I am asking... what about the Tri-Stat dX system do you hate/dislike/whatever you want to call it?
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by hippie_mama » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:30 pm

r:_lolabove yeah Star, show us where the bad system touched you *offers doll*

:s_empathy
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by NulSyn » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:38 pm

The empathy emoticon makes the last post full of WINZ!
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by Pyriel » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:49 am

hehe, true. however, i'd like to avoid making starmage think that ppl are being ironic; i, for one, am realy curious, since i also have the impression starmage hasnt played TSdX.

my suspicion (not sure about it at all! just a wild guess...) is that starmage's problem is that Tristat is not crunchy enough. it is true that while tristat is much less crunchy and detailed than other systems, limiting the ammount of player choices when designing the character. there is an IMMENSE ammount of players that consider building the character part of the fun itself- while i admit i totaly disagree with starmage on his mentality regarding character creation(i have different criteria and priorities when i design characters), i *do* see the value in having many choices when designing your character.

this is the reason for my famous hatred for d20; while it has an obscene ammount of power-up options, its actual rp-value character building options are extremely limited (no character flaws , impossibly one-dimensional playstyle/concepts, etc).
so, maybe according to star's criteria, the choices *tristat* offers when designing and playing your character are too limited. (and no, you dont need to have played to see that in a system)

the point i want to emphasize though, is, a system doesnt have to be perfect to be played. verd has played palladium, one of his most hated systems. i KEEP playing d20, a system i hate with fiery passion. so why can't you, starmage, give tristat a shot? a good game needs a good GM and players first, the system comes second.
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by Starmage21 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:50 am

Oh no guys, I've played Tri-Stat dX and hated it. Started with BESM. It played OK I guess, I dont have any negative experiences about that game, but I dont remember anything about it either. It's been almost 10 years since I played it.

THEN CAME ALONG SILVER AGE SENTINELS. OH GOD THE FAIL...

blech. And this is back when I was still able to go to the large FLGS stores and play.

yeah do not want...
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by verdilak » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:26 am

Ahh cool. I've not played BESM or BESM 2e, but I do believe they are d6 games, no skills and little in the way of power levels... by that I mean I think they go from little power to huge amounts of power within only 2-3 levels. SAS Is pretty much what TSdX is, without the ability to change up the dice values or skill costs.

So, what caused the fail? I have to ask because I've ran Tri-Stat dX games for the better part of a year now and I've not come across any fail, nor have my players... meaning we must either be missing something or your memory of the system is colored by the game that was played with it. I'm good with believing the former right now. I was just IMed last night by an old player from here stating that he's using TSdX for his RL game and its going great, and he's using the variable damage rules which I think causes combats to last a wee bit longer than necessary.

So, whats wrong with SAS/TSdX?
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"I'm imagining Kiera Knightly, Katherine Zeta-Jones, Angelina and Meg Fox sitting around your map wearing bandanas vigorously shaking fists full of d20s." - Aval Penworth, in regards to a map I made
"We're talking about the GM that made us fight giant Fruit, Verd is totally unpredictable." - Nikurasu (one of my players)
Everyone is an atheist about some gods, we just went one god further. - Richard Dawkins
Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."--Ferris Bueller, 1986
To the human body, a spoonful of flour and a spoonful of sugar are identical.
"Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It is where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more." - Terry Pratchett, Pyramids
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by Starmage21 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:00 pm

verdilak wrote:Ahh cool. I've not played BESM or BESM 2e, but I do believe they are d6 games, no skills and little in the way of power levels... by that I mean I think they go from little power to huge amounts of power within only 2-3 levels. SAS Is pretty much what TSdX is, without the ability to change up the dice values or skill costs.

So, what caused the fail? I have to ask because I've ran Tri-Stat dX games for the better part of a year now and I've not come across any fail, nor have my players... meaning we must either be missing something or your memory of the system is colored by the game that was played with it. I'm good with believing the former right now. I was just IMed last night by an old player from here stating that he's using TSdX for his RL game and its going great, and he's using the variable damage rules which I think causes combats to last a wee bit longer than necessary.

So, whats wrong with SAS/TSdX?


First, it reeks of "quick and dirty". You might as well ask 2 players to roll 5 dice and whoever gets the first yahtzee wins the contest. 3 stats, which you have to roll under just doesnt make sense with a system where a "bigger" die is supposed to mean more power. So it gets more difficult to succeed the MORE powerful you are? Makes no sense!

Moreover, in the supers game: High stats and and low skills with a bit of mastery turns a character into a powerhouse, whereas low stats and high skills creates characters that suck. No semblance of balance whatsoever in that regard.

lastly, there are other generic systems that go fast, and do things a little better. Fuzion for example works great, created a couple of systems that were for a time wildly popular, and still exist in the niche market today (Mekton Zeta, Champions, and Cyberpunk 2020)
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by Pyriel » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:15 pm

lol@ talking about balance AT ALL when you like d20 :D nothing against you, starmage, but d20 is one of the least balanced systems i have ever seen. it not only has balance problems, (all systems have balance problems, tristat, d20, ALL) but in d20's case, there's even a problem with class roles' balance ( the best rogue-ish character is a wizard with utility buffs like improved invisibility, the best melee warrior is a sorcerer with combat buffs combined with spell attacks, etc, the best ranger is the druid, and in general, "a spellcaster does it better", even when it comes to other class' roles)
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by hippie_mama » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:23 pm

Your system comments actually aren't true in my experience, Star.

Yes, it is pretty fast and dirty, but i consider that a good point. 0 HP isn't death, it's a mortal wound. Most bad guys won't keep attacking you unless you're fighting back. They won't stop to take your pulse and be sure if you're dead or not. And yeah, the dice get bigger, but it's a system where you tend to level up really fast. In our last supers game, for example, it wasn't uncommon to get a new power or boost to ACV every couple of sessions.

Stats are used WITH skills in combat, so depending on how you spend your points, higher skills might actually be more helpful than higher stats when it comes down to it. There aren't a lot of stats because they're just not necessary. They're generalized and everything else is covered by skills and attributes. It's the most balanced thing ever because everything is assigned a fair point value, and you can min/max all you want but if you do, you're actually min/maxed for both better and worse, as it should be.
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by verdilak » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:42 pm

Starmage21 wrote:
First, it reeks of "quick and dirty". You might as well ask 2 players to roll 5 dice and whoever gets the first yahtzee wins the contest. 3 stats, which you have to roll under just doesnt make sense with a system where a "bigger" die is supposed to mean more power. So it gets more difficult to succeed the MORE powerful you are? Makes no sense!
Lets look at this shall we? The average stat for a baseline human is a 4, no matter what your dice. In a d20 game, the most powerful game you can effectively have, a baseline human is rarely every going to succeed at something that the heroes are trying to do... which is good because you dont want the soccer mom who just was cut off in rush hour to throw lighting at the driver who pissed her off. Average stats for a hero, a character, isn't available since you pay for what you want though it seems to be that the average stat is around what the dice value is. So average stat in a d6 game is 6, 10 for a d10, in a d20 game, you have far enough points to make every stat a 20, giving you a 50% chance to succeed at things that are on the Godlike scale. Rolling for anything easy will give you a +8 bonus to your target number... in other words, no need to even roll for something that is easy. So anything that you are trying to do that is below the scale of a God you wouldnt even be really rolling for it (unless your character is lacking in that area for some reason).

You seem to be forgetting that with the higher dice, you get more character points making it even easier to make a character with max stats. In a d20 game you get 300+ character points. Max stat for a d20 game is 40. You can spend 240 of those 300 to make your stats max and now you have 60 points left over to spend on powers. How do you not see how the game actually works?

Moreover, in the supers game: High stats and and low skills with a bit of mastery turns a character into a powerhouse, whereas low stats and high skills creates characters that suck. No semblance of balance whatsoever in that regard.
Thats not accurate at all. Low stat characters with high skills make for characters that are highly skilled. Characters with high stats and low skills make for trained characters. The former can probably hack any computer system while the former cannot since it would be too hard for that character to perform with his lack of skill in that area. Sure, the latter could possibly crunch up the computer like a soda can while the former cannot, but that is what makes character's different. Like in all game systems, some characters are better than others at certain things. It is all in how you spend your points.

lastly, there are other generic systems that go fast, and do things a little better. Fuzion for example works great, created a couple of systems that were for a time wildly popular, and still exist in the niche market today (Mekton Zeta, Champions, and Cyberpunk 2020)
Thanks, I'll check them out. Why didnt you mention them in the thread about systems that do combats fast?

EDIT: Okay, looked at Fuzions wiki... 10 stats doesnt seem better and quicker lol. But it looks like Instant Fuzion only has 4, maybe thats the Fuzion you are talking about. However, I dont see very many games being played with Fuzion, so shouldn't that tell me that something is wrong with the game and should make me hesitant and aloof to play it? Is there anything wrong with the Fuzion system?
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"I'm imagining Kiera Knightly, Katherine Zeta-Jones, Angelina and Meg Fox sitting around your map wearing bandanas vigorously shaking fists full of d20s." - Aval Penworth, in regards to a map I made
"We're talking about the GM that made us fight giant Fruit, Verd is totally unpredictable." - Nikurasu (one of my players)
Everyone is an atheist about some gods, we just went one god further. - Richard Dawkins
Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."--Ferris Bueller, 1986
To the human body, a spoonful of flour and a spoonful of sugar are identical.
"Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It is where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more." - Terry Pratchett, Pyramids
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by NulSyn » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:37 pm

Just thought I would also state that the higher the die the more the difficulties are suppose to change. An action that requires a 5 or lower in d6 power level is not the same as an action that requires a 5 or lower in a d12 game.......in fact they are so far away from each other in magnitude it's not even funny.
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by verdilak » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:46 pm

NulSyn wrote:Just thought I would also state that the higher the die the more the difficulties are suppose to change. An action that requires a 5 or lower in d6 power level is not the same as an action that requires a 5 or lower in a d12 game.......in fact they are so far away from each other in magnitude it's not even funny.

Yeah, thats what I was trying to get to. A 5 difficulty in a d20 TSdX game is something that not even the majority of comic book supers could have any hope to accomplish.
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"I'm imagining Kiera Knightly, Katherine Zeta-Jones, Angelina and Meg Fox sitting around your map wearing bandanas vigorously shaking fists full of d20s." - Aval Penworth, in regards to a map I made
"We're talking about the GM that made us fight giant Fruit, Verd is totally unpredictable." - Nikurasu (one of my players)
Everyone is an atheist about some gods, we just went one god further. - Richard Dawkins
Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."--Ferris Bueller, 1986
To the human body, a spoonful of flour and a spoonful of sugar are identical.
"Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It is where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more." - Terry Pratchett, Pyramids
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by Starmage21 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:47 pm

Instant Fuzion does REALLY fast combat, and both stat and skill apply equally, since it's always skill+stat+3d6, and never changes. Instant Fuzion, however, was yanked from Fuzion's ass for the Dragonball Z RPG though, which completely sucked ballz.

Fuzion is the system used for both Mekton Zeta, Champions, and Cyberpunk 2020. Even with 10 stats it plays well. Very fast, because the dynamic is basically the same as Instant Fuzion. Stat+Skill+1d10, with exploding 10s.
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by NulSyn » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:01 pm

Starmage21 wrote:
Fuzion is the system used for both Mekton Zeta, Champions, and Cyberpunk 2020. Even with 10 stats it plays well. Very fast, because the dynamic is basically the same as Instant Fuzion. Stat+Skill+1d10, with exploding 10s.

This is not true. Cyberpunk 2020 uses the Interlock System, it was Cyberpunk v3 that used Fuzion. Champions uses the HERO system, it was Champions the New Millenium that used Fuzion. Cyberpunk v3 and Champions TNM were both considered to be huge failures. The Fuzion version of Mekton was also vaporware and used Interlock like 2020, that still doesn't stop the rumors some people claim they have actual Fuzion versions of Mekton.


However I agree that Fuzion runs extremely quick and smooth even with 10 stats. I have a shit ton of notes where I converted lots of Rifts stuff to Fuzion.
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Re: Starmage, whats with the TSdX dislike?

PostPosted by Starmage21 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:39 pm

NulSyn wrote:
Starmage21 wrote:
Fuzion is the system used for both Mekton Zeta, Champions, and Cyberpunk 2020. Even with 10 stats it plays well. Very fast, because the dynamic is basically the same as Instant Fuzion. Stat+Skill+1d10, with exploding 10s.

This is not true. Cyberpunk 2020 uses the Interlock System, it was Cyberpunk v3 that used Fuzion. Champions uses the HERO system, it was Champions the New Millenium that used Fuzion. Cyberpunk v3 and Champions TNM were both considered to be huge failures. The Fuzion version of Mekton was also vaporware and used Interlock like 2020, that still doesn't stop the rumors some people claim they have actual Fuzion versions of Mekton.


However I agree that Fuzion runs extremely quick and smooth even with 10 stats. I have a shit ton of notes where I converted lots of Rifts stuff to Fuzion.


...The hippo is correct, as usual. Interlock and Fuzion are very similar. It's easy to confuzz the two.
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