Systems with Fast Combats

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Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by verdilak » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:07 pm

Since not everyone like Tri-Stat dX as a utilitarian system for roleplaying, I am going to see if there might be a different system out there that can be used in its stead.

Benchmarks:

With Tri-Stat, the largest combat I have had was between 6 PC and around 20 villains. The combat lasted less than an hour to complete, had multiple turns (5 I believe) and everyone seemed to have fun kicking ass and having their asses kicked.

What other systems can do large combats like that, in the same amount of time (or even faster)? Preferably systems that anyone can pick up, make a character, and engage in combat in under an hour.
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"I'm imagining Kiera Knightly, Katherine Zeta-Jones, Angelina and Meg Fox sitting around your map wearing bandanas vigorously shaking fists full of d20s." - Aval Penworth, in regards to a map I made
"We're talking about the GM that made us fight giant Fruit, Verd is totally unpredictable." - Nikurasu (one of my players)
Everyone is an atheist about some gods, we just went one god further. - Richard Dawkins
Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."--Ferris Bueller, 1986
To the human body, a spoonful of flour and a spoonful of sugar are identical.
"Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It is where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more." - Terry Pratchett, Pyramids
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by hippie_mama » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:35 pm

I'm not sure how fast Savage Worlds is for small group combat (the campaigns we played didn't last long enough for the group to get too comfortable with it), but i think it had mass combat rules for going up against larger groups and armies? If so, that's a huge time-saver on the bigger battles.
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by verdilak » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:58 pm

I've got lots, LOTS, of love for SW... I just would like to be part of a SW game before I attempt to run the system myself. *hint* Anyone want to run one? *hint*
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"I'm imagining Kiera Knightly, Katherine Zeta-Jones, Angelina and Meg Fox sitting around your map wearing bandanas vigorously shaking fists full of d20s." - Aval Penworth, in regards to a map I made
"We're talking about the GM that made us fight giant Fruit, Verd is totally unpredictable." - Nikurasu (one of my players)
Everyone is an atheist about some gods, we just went one god further. - Richard Dawkins
Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."--Ferris Bueller, 1986
To the human body, a spoonful of flour and a spoonful of sugar are identical.
"Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It is where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more." - Terry Pratchett, Pyramids
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by Solar_Dawn » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:33 am

I think the speed of combat also depends a lot on how much people are paying attention, and how invested they are.
I can't find a specific reason why tri-stat combat would be faster then D&D combat, since they are pretty similar.
With tri-stat, you make an attack, you roll your dice, then the enemy tries to dodge/block/resist, with another dice roll. Which is the same for D&D, except that D&D has some static numbers, so sometimes one side doesn't even have to roll.
In Tri-stat, every character and every NPC acts in an initiative order, and the GM has to roll for every NPC separately, which is the same for D&D.

I think that an experienced group of D&D players, can be just as fast in combat as a group of tri-stat players. D&D combat can go very fast.
In the real life club I found in my city, they play D&D 4th edition, and while I haven't joined and played myself, I have watched several times, and I don't think any combat lasted over an hour. I don't remember exactly how many turns those combats were, but I still think the system isn't inherently slower.
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by hippie_mama » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:42 am

D&D is mostly slow, true, when people are looking up stuff all the time. But from what i've seen, that happens with experienced players at least as much as new ones, or possibly more because they know of things to seek out and exploit. The first couple of times i played, i was doing a lot of simple attacks and then waiting around For. Ever. For my turn to come up again. Everything is dependent on where the other player characters are and what they're doing, which might be good in a group that gets together in person and has played together a lot, but really not so much for online play, where people tend to be less trusting of their fellow players, or they want to have the 'spotlight' or whatever. "Fast" in online play depends a lot on being able to make decisions without worrying about how it's going to effect everyone else in the group in the numbers department (dammit, you took away my +2!), or more importantly, how easily one of those other morons is going to screw up everything you try to do (i wasted my last three turns buffing you, and you stepped out of the area of influence!). At least with systems like Tri-Stat, the complications are RP issues rather than system mechanic ones (so you woke up the enemy camp--i better make it quick). I can deal with RP through clever RP; system ones, not so much depending on what it is.
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by Pyriel » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:23 am

um... actualy i disagree with both hippie and solar about d & d.

D & D is very fast *under certain assumptions of the players*.

in my playgroup, we play and always know when someone has +2 ; all players are expected to know all rules regarding physical combat by heart, including players with caster PCs.
in my playgroup, no player gets out of any buff's area of effect without already knowing it: all players of fighters are expected to know all spells by heart.

when player A gets weapon B and attacks using Feats X and Y, and using the new weapon's special ability Z, nothing weird/slow happens: the player knows by heart all weapons, knows all his Feats (even other players know his Feats), and knows what ability Z does.
what did i say in another thread? "he has done his homework". the least involved player in my playgroup has read *the DM's Guide * book 5-6 times. the whole book, let alone the books actualy meant for players. this is the kind of work that D & D requires of the players (and personaly, most D & D players I know , they know the system well enough to GM any situation).

for my playgroup, this is not considered work. this is considered *MAJOR* part of the fun-albeit seperate from the rp part-. (like, a mentaly stimulating riddle or something). Hence they have no problem with it. I suspect its the same with Starmage (maybe thats why he dislikes Tristat that requires nearly no such work?)But this is PERSONAL PREFERENCE. Different players have a right to NOT want to get that rules-involved, or they may consider such things 'unfun'. for them, D & D will never make sense, not well enough to actualy become the fast system it realy is, and they have EVERY right to have that opinion. I personaly think there's no sense trying to "sell" a rules-heavy system to ppl that like "rules-light" games. some ppl like different things, it happens ;)
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by hippie_mama » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:45 am

Eh, yeah, being expected to learn every single angle of every spell and every rule of a system that requires so many books is NOT my idea of fun. It would "sell" me even more against it, lol.
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by NulSyn » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:19 am

Live play of D&D has always been extremely fast, with maybe some sessions of 3.x. Even 4E with maps, tokens, and minis runs extremely fast for me. True20 a version of 3.x is super fast so far. To throw out a few more I'd say Savage Worlds, Unisystem, the nWoD, CODA, and the new Dragon Age.
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by verdilak » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:56 pm

I know that our one game of RL D&D ran about twice as fast as online combats did, which was awesome... but it could have just been as hippie said: We were all newbs and really didn't know what we were doing or how to get the most out of our characters, so we went with the simple attacks. I think I was the only mage and my turns took the longest because I had to re-read all the spells to see which one would work best for the current situation. i think I used my bow more than my spells simply for that reason lol.

The biggest thing is that I still don't the rules for Tri-Stat inside and out. When someone asks me something, I still have to look it up. I would assume that it is the same for all my other players. And yet things still move very quickly in online combat. So for me, if I am going to change the system that I use for online gaming, I'm going to need a system that is fast and easy for newbies as Tri-Stat was for us.
For example:
First game I ran with TSdX, the combat in it ran so fast, it made us all go "Woah!". I was confused because I had set aside the normal amount of time for combat and it was over like that *snap!*. And that was the first time most of us had even looked through the book.

So thats the sort of system that I am looking for. Sure, most any system can be ran very fast if all the players and GM are on the same page, know all the rules, and are experienced with the rules. But I don't believe I have ever been part of a game where none had to pick up the book and flip through it to find the rules on something... even if it was just to confirm that their memory of the rule was correct or not. Hell, the first time I played V:tM I had to read the combat rules for everyone because the experienced V:tM players were remembering it incorrectly.

All I want is a fast combat system that is fast no matter if everyone is a newb to the system or not. Thats the only reason I use Tri-Stat. The only reason I like it so much for online play. Do I want to try out other systems so I can see how they compare? Hell yes! Wushu, Savage Worlds, FATE, D&D Essentials even, BASH, ICONS, I'd like to try out Gunslingers and Gamblers again, Truth and Justice, Squadron UK, Supers Inc., Capes, the new M&M3e (when it comes out), nWoD, API, WuXing, Fudge, and more!


Hell... maybe I should run a Quantum Leap sort of game, where the group changes settings/time line after every small adventure but also change the system each time to so we can all test them out to see which one works best for us (though that would require remaking characters at least once a week).
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"I'm imagining Kiera Knightly, Katherine Zeta-Jones, Angelina and Meg Fox sitting around your map wearing bandanas vigorously shaking fists full of d20s." - Aval Penworth, in regards to a map I made
"We're talking about the GM that made us fight giant Fruit, Verd is totally unpredictable." - Nikurasu (one of my players)
Everyone is an atheist about some gods, we just went one god further. - Richard Dawkins
Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."--Ferris Bueller, 1986
To the human body, a spoonful of flour and a spoonful of sugar are identical.
"Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It is where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more." - Terry Pratchett, Pyramids
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by NulSyn » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:43 pm

It really does boil down to how well the GM, and to slightly lesser extent the players, know the system. A LOT of people know D&D inside and out, and to be honest there's not a whole lot to know rules-wise, 3.x was probably the most expansive. But even when I ran Palladium/Rifts my combats went pretty quick, because I knew it well and I made lots of snap judgements on unknowns...which Palladiums puzzle piece system actually is GOOD for. I know I know the hippo said something nice about Pally's system, signs of armaggeddon and all that jazz.

It really boils down to how the game works with the people. It's why its awesome there are so many games to pick from.

Incidentally, TSdX worked okay online when I played in Verd's game. It wasn't super, but it was smooth enough to be cool....in RL games I ran of it, it broke quite a bit. WAYYYYYY too much whiffing. Combats lasted too long simply because people missed so freakin much. I know it was simply power levels and die levels being in a bad spot, but TS doesn't give anything good to figure what's too much or too little and it all has to be learned through trial and error. That kinda sucked. Even in Verd's game we whiffed kinda bad, and when the die got upped it got ridiculous.


BTW M&M 3E is out. In both DC Adventures and the M&M 3E core (I thin pdf only right now.)
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by verdilak » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:13 pm

Yeah, you joined it right before I switched the dice... which is something I shouldn't have done lol. And I agree, TS isnt super... its just smooth enough to be good. My problem is just that I've not seen any other system, so far, show itself to be better than it with gaming online (and I would probably never use TSdX to run games in RL).

Thanks! I didnt realize the pdf was out yet (I thought the pdf would only come out once the hardback was released).

But yeah, I agree that its partly about how the game works with people... but I honestly believe that it only really counts in RL games. Online games have far too many problems that are not the fault of the game system (like internet dropping, someone switching tabs, having to wait for things to be typed out, not being able to hear the tone of the words, someone falling asleep at the keyboard, ect.). That is probably why I am mainly interested in games that can do fast combats even with the inherent problems of gaming online. Or, well, I'm not. See, I'm happy enough with how TSdX works for online gaming that I have no real desire to make my players learn new systems, but according to the other thread that not everyone is fond of TSdX, that is why I am looking to see if another system will work.
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"I'm imagining Kiera Knightly, Katherine Zeta-Jones, Angelina and Meg Fox sitting around your map wearing bandanas vigorously shaking fists full of d20s." - Aval Penworth, in regards to a map I made
"We're talking about the GM that made us fight giant Fruit, Verd is totally unpredictable." - Nikurasu (one of my players)
Everyone is an atheist about some gods, we just went one god further. - Richard Dawkins
Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."--Ferris Bueller, 1986
To the human body, a spoonful of flour and a spoonful of sugar are identical.
"Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It is where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more." - Terry Pratchett, Pyramids
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by verdilak » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:56 am

I KNEW i've played this song and dance before: post31697.html
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"I'm imagining Kiera Knightly, Katherine Zeta-Jones, Angelina and Meg Fox sitting around your map wearing bandanas vigorously shaking fists full of d20s." - Aval Penworth, in regards to a map I made
"We're talking about the GM that made us fight giant Fruit, Verd is totally unpredictable." - Nikurasu (one of my players)
Everyone is an atheist about some gods, we just went one god further. - Richard Dawkins
Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."--Ferris Bueller, 1986
To the human body, a spoonful of flour and a spoonful of sugar are identical.
"Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It is where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more." - Terry Pratchett, Pyramids
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by NulSyn » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:55 am

Yeah I remember it too. Thought this thread was it necro'ed at first.
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Re: Systems with Fast Combats

PostPosted by verdilak » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:22 pm

Yeah, I shoulda searched and necro-ed it *bad mod*
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"I'm imagining Kiera Knightly, Katherine Zeta-Jones, Angelina and Meg Fox sitting around your map wearing bandanas vigorously shaking fists full of d20s." - Aval Penworth, in regards to a map I made
"We're talking about the GM that made us fight giant Fruit, Verd is totally unpredictable." - Nikurasu (one of my players)
Everyone is an atheist about some gods, we just went one god further. - Richard Dawkins
Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."--Ferris Bueller, 1986
To the human body, a spoonful of flour and a spoonful of sugar are identical.
"Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It is where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more." - Terry Pratchett, Pyramids
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