MMA and ground-fighting: are we overdoing it?

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MMA and ground-fighting: are we overdoing it?

PostPosted by Pyriel » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:00 pm

So i was talking with a fellow martial arts practicioner about self-defense and he brought up a subject:

"decades ago, when people in striking martial arts realised that in competitions it was mostly about points and not as much about survival, they changed their methods of practice to ones that *only* worked within that set of rules and not in actual fighting. Now, you MMA practicioners do the exact same thing; Ground fighting is great in an honorable duel thing- you sure can take punches until the opponent submits, and you're not in much danger from anything else. In the street, however, ground fighting and less ability to dodge means getting stabbed-even if the guy is disarmed his friends that he's gonna have will just kick your neck or elbow you in the head or anything. Theres no such thing as submission in such terms, only body harm. And ground fighting, while great as help... just doesnt cut it."

This got me thinking. See, the true original reason of martial arts is street self-defense, and even MMA started to prove how mistaken and impractical the way striking martial artists trained was when that set of rules(usually semi-contact or protective gear or no throws and tthe like) was broken. Did we stray from that cause? did we make the same mistake from a different route? The first reason that i thought this was correct for was SPEED. simply put, MMA's ground fighting factor is too much about patience, and lack of the "strike first" factor in the street will get you killed against weapons/multiple oppoennts.

I asked some people that have fought in street fights (and while i have had a couple, i mostly mean soccer hooligan guys i know that have A LOT) and what they said was that its mostly about agression , FAST throws to the ground and strong punches/low kicks.no patience, (or else you lose initiative and psychological factor, important for battle for survival) Some very experienced ones i have asked also knew that the most dangerous hits where usually "punches to the body's side" as they called them (which was actually also proven by old MMA legend Bas Rutten and his "liver shots").

So any thoughts? what do you guys think?
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Re: MMA and ground-fighting: are we overdoing it?

PostPosted by NulSyn » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:56 pm

This is why there is no such thing as strictly groundfighters, even in MMA if you can't strike you lose. Even the famed groundfighter Royce Gracie learned how to strike. MMA fighters do not just train for the ground, in fact some are no good at it at all. Just because they use rules in the cage does not mean they can not fight well in the street, that is a costly assumption if you are ever against one on the street.

Take for instance, myself. I fought in MMA leagues. I know Judo, some ju-jitsu, but I also know Eskrima/Kali/Arnis Silat which is all about striking. And people assume when they hear Eskrima it means weapons only, that is another mistake. It teaches a lot, A LOT about unarmed strikes, quick aggressive, and fast strikes.

MMA has rules != MMA fighters only fight with those rules
MMA has groundfighting != MMA fighters only ground fight

Your buddy's statement leads me to believe he has never fought an MMA fight. Or even an MMA fighter for that matter.
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Re: MMA and ground-fighting: are we overdoing it?

PostPosted by Pyriel » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:02 pm

you *do* know that 99% of MMA fighters dont learn arts like Kali right? most use muai thai for striking... hence they know how to throw punches elbows and kicks but thats basically it. When we say "MMA fighter" , as an expression, we dont say "any martial artist who mixes his martial arts training",which exists for hundreds of years and should ALWAYS be done (even the founder of wado ruy was foremost a jujutsu practicioner and not a karate practicioner) but the basic "sports tournament-based jujutsu-muaithai fighter" that is in fashion now as if its football. and these guys do have said characteristics.

Actually, I dont know if its a coincidence, but the Judo/Kali combination seems ideal for the street, as it teaches you how to face armed opponents (due to femiliarity) better than other arts , either armed or unarmed yourself, and Judo has the throws necessery (though not as good kansetsu waza as jujutsu).
hence why i was asking about Kali the other day if you remember.
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Re: MMA and ground-fighting: are we overdoing it?

PostPosted by NulSyn » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:03 pm

Pyriel wrote:you *do* know that 99% of MMA fighters dont learn arts like Kali right? most use muai thai for striking... hence they know how to throw punches elbows and kicks but thats basically it.

Muay Thai striking is no laughing matter, and I don't know what MMA is like in Greece, but here in America the MMA fighters run the gamut in styles for striking. I have of course known several that know Eskrima and Hapkido.
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Re: MMA and ground-fighting: are we overdoing it?

PostPosted by Zamion » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:15 am

ground fighting is bad on the street....as a guy who has been in plenty of fights in hsi life...its rarely one on one..., usaly one of my friends or me or one of some other group of guys pops off at the mouth two guys move up to each other and talk shit and then a fight starts and everyone jumps in ......in most cases if your not fighting to the death IE bar fight. if your out numbered ground and pound is gonna get you kicked in the spine and head so damn fast its sad....

ive honestly only been in two fights where i actualy thought the person attacking me was goign for death and in both cases he was beatten senseless mostly by my friends and less by me as i was mearly trying to dodge the pointy thing he was swining around .......
your best defense will always be numbers ....if your a bad ass martial artist guy and there 4 or 5 dudes. the 4 or 5 dudes with some fight experince are gonna win .
easch indivual martial art has its bonuses but ive seen alot of trained and supposivly deadly guys freeze up when some massive dude is barrling down on them going for broke , i think this is beacuse most martial arts places dont train to keep fighting once your getting your ass beat its like......"ohh that sucked got to on that one lets try soemthing else" the guys you talked about that are soccer hoolagins would probly agree getting the shit kicked out of you sucks and you got to keep tryign to fight till some one comes and helps you or all your ribs are gonna be mush. all of the dojo's i went to when i was younger for jujitsu were good at teaching form and compatuon juda/kata but the brawls i was in are what teach methe most
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Re: MMA and ground-fighting: are we overdoing it?

PostPosted by Pyriel » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:04 am

In fact, traditional martial arts *do* practice combat stamina... to a whole new level. some of my excercises when i trained in wado ruy involved hitting my shin with a baseball bat , striking hard makiwara , hitting my abs with wooden things, etc. of course, these excercises are useless in the modern sports side so most dojo's dont practice them. Hence, a martial artist trained like that *will* beat 4, 5 or even 10 guys (i've seen it) cause he simply wont feel the hits. We just must remember that martial arts are essetially training metods and NOT tricks-learning, so if your training is not *hardcore* enough ( i run 50 miles/week and i consider that base, not expert), you will fail.

I agree that ground fighting doesnt work in street fighting(mind you, i mean in armed robberies/street muggings, not bar fights who dont really concern me; not "fighting" cases but "kill or be killed" cases.). However, throws of Judo and wrestling *are* impossibly useful, especially because being on the ground sucks. a double-legged takedown *will* be great in a fight, it just neednt be followed by an armbar but by strikes to lethal areas. no individual martial art sucks- "its the fighter, not the art."
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